Flesher-Glosson Debate on the Deity of Christ

A friend, Jonathan Flesher, had the following discussion with Daniel Glosson, a Trinitarian, on Facebook before the Glosson pulled the discussion. It is very telling to see how frustrated and irrational one can be when opinions are challenged. The discussion covers only limited issues, but is really worth the read, if only to see the gentle spirit that Jonathan demonstrates though machine-gunned with numerous epithets Glosson sent his way.

Daniel Glosson

Unless Jesus is our God, Lord & Savior there is no hope.

Jonathan Flesher

Not to start a debate or anything, but I actually believe the bible’s formula is a little different than that. It very plainly says that to Christians there is one true Lord, Jesus, and his Father is the one true God . . .

1 Corinthians 8:

5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 7But not everyone knows this . . .

Daniel Glosson

I think you’re inferring Christ isn’t deity, if you’re not then I apologize. If you are, I’m curious how you would interpret this passage: “To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.” Romans 9:5. The passage you’ve posted is concerning idolatry and false gods that the Corinthians were worshiping and tampering with. Paul is clarifying who Jesus and God are and in turn explains their “roles” as God. The attributes listed belong to that of a deity. God: through whom all things came and for whom we live. Jesus: through whom all things came and through whom we live. What else could this mean? Who is the author of life but God? We live for God, through Christ and we have no need for false idols. That is what this passage is saying to a people who devote themselves continually to idolatry. All the passage you posted does is support my claim. It is Paul declaring the divine attributes of Jesus and God to the Corinthian church.

Jonathan Flesher

Well, I’m really not inferring anything, but simply saying that the formula for the new testament of the bible after Christ’s glorification is that The Father is God and Jesus is Lord. The Father is said to be Christ’s God even after Christ ascends and is exalted and glorified. As far as Corinthians 8:6 goes, I agree the passage is about idolatry, but pay a little closer attention to the wording. 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM whom all things came and FOR whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things came and THROUGH whom we live. I think prepositions are extremely important in biblical study and many times brutally mistranslated depending on the section and the version. From does not mean through. Up does not mean down. On does not mean beside. By does not mean in. Yet, biblical translators take this liberty all throughout scripture to line up with pre-existing theological beliefs. Next question is what “all things” is referring to. In many new testament passages, all things refers to things in the spiritual realm– i.e. principalities and powers, also things referring to the spiritual kingdom of heaven and the body of Christ. I don’t think it matters in this case, because I think it is obvious that all of creation was set into motion with the end result of humanity being conformed to his (Christ’s) image. Thus, all things were created with this purpose in mind. Therefore, all things were created through him and with the intent of him being God’s final masterpiece and plan for humanity (Logos). I also don’t deny the deity of Christ in the sense that God gave him all power and authority. Christ has truly been glorified and is in all functional equality with God. I don’t believe this was innate from his birth however. It was given to him by God. My point in all of this is that the formula doesn’t require us to think black and white on this issue. We are not hopeless if God happens to be ONE and not THREE. Jesus Christ is Lord to all who are his followers. They share the same God, the Father.

Jonathan Flesher

Regarding Romans 9:6, check out some of the differences there are between bible translations . . .

RSV: “to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.” Moffatt: “the patriarchs are theirs, and theirs too (so far as natural descent goes) is the Christ. (Blessed for evermore be the God who is over all! Amen.)”

KJV: “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”

NAS: “whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”

NIV: “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.”

The above translations seem to fall into two basic categories: those that are worded to make Christ into God almighty, and those that make the final phrase into a type of eulogy or doxology referring to God the Father. The RSV and Moffatt are good examples of the second category.

Daniel Glosson

I’m curious how you interpret this passage, John specifically 1-3 and verse 14:

[1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2]He was in the beginning with God. [3]All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4]In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7]He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8]He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9]The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. [10]He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11]He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12]But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15](John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, „He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.”) [16]And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17]For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18]No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. (John 1:1-18 ESV)

What other conclusion can we draw from the man who walked with Jesus (John) except that Jesus the Christ was God. Also I have to make mention that even Jewish understanding sees the Messiah (or Christ) as the divine entering into the world. They would use passages such as:

[26]Then God said, “Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26 ESV)

It’s still one God, but in 3 persons and the concept doesn’t contradict itself. Additionally, how does “through” and “for” change anything apart from establishing their roles in that passage? It still makes them both out to be divine. I looked up all the translations before I posted Romans 9:5 the first time. I guess I’ll have to study the Greek and see what I come to as far as that verse is concerned specifically. However, I think either way apart from a few translations the consensus is still the same as the ESV which suggests Christ is God. I also must make mention that I primarily trust the NASB and the ESV because they are both literal translations from Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek (they are also 70% the same). It’s largely the consensus that those are the best and most reliable English translations so I tend to study those. I have no clue of the credibility behind the Moffat or RSV so I will have to do research there as well. I can’t just accept any translation as truth because they could be similar to the twisted and manipulated translations that the Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons use. Lastly, I believe the Holy Spirit is God. How do you view Him?

Jonathan Flesher

Hey man, first things first. If you want to go deeper in this and get a good idea as to where I am coming from, it?s going to require having an open mind and a willingness to go places you haven’t gone before and might be uncomfortable with initially. I?ll leave that up to you. No hard feelings either way. I will say to you that I believe what I believe for reasons that go beyond study. It has to do with by belief that there is a lot at stake as far as the Devil is concerned regarding our transformation as followers of Christ.

I believe the Devil is doing everything he can to confuse the believer?s identity in Christ and how he or she relates to Jesus. If you ask the average Christian if it is possible for him or her to be like Christ, let alone if it is God?s will, they will answer in a variety of ways that all end up with the same general conclusion. NO. Jesus was God and I am not. I think there is a big problem with this belief. We are to relate to Jesus on a human level and I believe it is our purpose to follow Jesus—the author and perfector of our faith—through temptation and fear— into perfect love. We are to ultimately become just like him.

I have a hard time (and so do so many Christians) believing we are capable of doing this— at least if he was God in the flesh. I also don?t believe Jesus? life, death and resurrection have the same genuine weight if Jesus was God in the flesh. I don?t believe Jesus would have had anything to give up if he was already immortal to begin with. He had to REALLY DIE and to fully TRUST God to raise him from the dead for his death and resurrection to have any real significance. He had to be tempted in all things LIKE WE ARE for his life to mean anything. The bible very plainly says God cannot be tempted. There are contradictions all over the scripture like these that I believe can only be solved by getting honest about some things.

We need to start by realizing that scripture should make sense and not contradict itself. Most Trinitarians believe that Jesus gave up his immortality to become a man and die for the sins of man, then got it back after he died. I would say he would also have to give up all his memory of being God for that to hold any water at all, but if people can perform the mental gymnastics that it requires to think that way and still relate to Jesus as 100% man, then fine. It?s the relating to Jesus on the 100% level that I am most concerned with. I don?t know very many Christians that consider the 100% man part of their doctrine though. I hear all kinds of things about his divinity, but very little about his humanity. The Nicean creed clearly states that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.

Funny thing about that is that the core argument Athanasius made at the counsel of Nicea is that no mere man could die for the sins of the world, only a god could. What did he give up in this case? Let?s get honest. Doctrine should stand on its own without men adding philosophy and mysticism. Men should not have to continually invent doctrine to make scripture make sense. The church has been doing this very thing since Nicea… All that said, I would love to dialog with you on this, but really don?t want it to become a verse vomiting contest. After this round, I would rather talk about the concepts that you think are important than comparing verse for verse, so I probably won?t respond much in rebuttal. Here is what I have in response to what you have already said however, and one question I still have:

First regarding bible translations… I have been a KJV guy for years, but am reading more and more out of the ESV, in fact, its what I read more than anything at this point. There is still a Greek text behind all of these translations though, and if we are honest there is very little differences between the texts used behind the translations. The reality is that in many cases there is more than one way to translate verses into English. Its not that one translation is always right, and one is all messed up. Men are the ones doing the translating in every version. I don’t read the RSV or Moffitt translations regularly, but the King James version is very similar to those in that passage of Romans as well.

Comparing lots of different translations is a great way to see the depth and scope of the section. Regarding prepositions… There is, in fact a huge difference between IN and BY, and FROM and THROUGH. From IMPLIES a source. Through REQUIRES a source. Sadly, translators bend prepositions all the time to support their already existing theological beliefs . . . Dealing with John 1:1 as well as 1:14 I will say this, I believe The WORD (LOGOS, which has 40 some odd derivations) becomes flesh in Jesus and his actions. JESUS doesn’t BECOME flesh. This verse, and ones to follow, deal with God’s perfection, plan, reason, purpose, etc, becoming flesh in the life and actions of Jesus.

Regarding pronouns in John 1:3 and following, the word Logos (WORD) can legitimately be translated with IT instead of HE. Just because a word is masculine in Greek, doesn’t mean the pronoun should follow suit in English. The same can be said about masculine words in Spanish. No English translation would ever translate el carro (car) into a HE. You would see the pronoun for car as IT in English. Something to consider.

This can go deeper, but I don’t really want to go overboard. I will say the same rule can apply to the portions of John referring to the holy spirit as a comforter (translated with pronouns as HE). I however don’t have a problem referring to the holy spirit as a person. I don’t think the spirit makes its own freewill decisions, however, but only speaks what it hears from Jesus or the Father.

John 16:

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

When the holy spirit is PNEUMA (spirit) in Greek and not the PARAKLETE (comforter) it is in the neuter and should always be translated IT. The reason I don’t believe the spirit is God as a third person is also because the language of scripture doesn’t refer to it as being such. Think about the places in the scripture where people gaze into heaven. How many thrones do they see? TWO–One for the Father, and one for the Son or the Lamb I’m thinking of Revelation as well as Steven’s stoning in Acts).

I believe both the Father and the Son are also referred to as the spirit. God raised Jesus from the dead with the same spirit that Jesus became upon resurrection (it says that Jesus was raised a life-giving spirit, 1 Corinthians 15:45). The gift of the holy spirit is also of the same spirit. We will be raised by Jesus with the same spirit. One spirit. The spirit OF and FROM God. The formula would be God-in-Christ-in-Us…

Touching on Jewish thought regarding Yahweh and his Messiah . . . There are a small portion of Jews that see things the way you referred, mostly Messianic Jews of today. I would have to totally disagree regarding the Jews of Jesus? time or before him however. The Hebrew command that Jesus considered most important when the teacher of the law asked him in Mark 12:29 was the Shema:

“The most important one,” Jesus answered, “is this: „Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.?”

God was one to the Jew, not three. Looking at the Hebrew word ELOHIM and its plurality doesn’t denote that God is a plurality of persons. This would have been blasphemous to a Jew. In fact, it was when the Jews thought Jesus was somehow claiming this. They wanted to stone him, even though I don?t believe he was claiming what they thought he was.

John 10:

31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33″We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, „I have said you are gods?? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Notice Jesus does not agree with what they say regarding this, but actually rebukes them and says he is merely claiming to be the Son of God. Regarding the Genesis accounts of God being a WE… Royalty in biblical culture was often referred to as WE even when it plainly referred to one man. This can be seen in Ezra 4:11 and 4:18:

“To King Artaxerxes, from your servants . . .”

The King replies:

“Greetings. The letter you sent US has been read and translated . . .”

This is typical among many cultures in fact. The Jews never viewed God as being a plurality of persons, and especially never three persons . . . Sorry if that was long winded. My question to you that you still haven?t answered is why Jesus HAS a God all throughout the epistles—even after he is exalted and glorified? How is it that God HAS a God?

Daniel Glosson

Jonathan . . . I’m really afraid for you. This can go back and forth forever because I truly believe you are guilty of exactly what you’re afraid of that you are blinding reading and thinking from the false lens you so adamantly are opposed to in Christian culture.

[5]Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [6]who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, [7]but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. [8]And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [9]Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, [10]so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11]and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11 ESV)

Jesus is God, He is equal to God, they are One. Additionally the Holy Spirit is God and portrays personified characteristics all throughout Scripture. I’m on my lunch break so I do not have time to do a word search and post all of these passages but I will if I must. There are multiple problems and contradictions in your position. I don’t understand how you’ll trust translations when they coincide with your understanding but when every English translation portrays the Word as “He” you choose to ignore it and write off as translation error.

From reading what you’ve written I believe you are prideful, rebellious and full of counterfeit knowledge. I think you want to make some sort of statement and you come off as a self-righteous spiritual hipster. I’m not attacking you, I’m afraid that you are in a dark place and are missing the greatest and most powerful part of who Christ. He is the Messiah, you need to study what the Messiah is. He is, as Isaiah says, “Immanuel,” which means “God with us”. [14]Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14 ESV)

When we are to be Christ-like that doesn’t mean we are to literally be what Christ was, we are made perfect in our faith in Him not our actions. Without the divinity of Christ we lose everything. Our sins cannot be atoned for without the fulfillment of the Law. What you believe isn’t a difference of opinion that requires discussion and a “open-mind” no my friend, it is heresy, through and through. It is terrifying what might happen.

You need to study the Bible, thoroughly because I think you’ve been fooling yourself for a long time and buying into the very deceit you think you see in other’s minds. False prophets are the ones who would lead others into a place where Christ isn’t who He says He is. He was killed for claiming to be God. He allowed people to worship Him. He forgave sins. All of these are traits of the divine. I won’t argue with those who deny the obvious. There is no point in keeping this going because your heart is hard.

You might say I am copping out and quitting but that simply isn’t true. I can tell when a conversation isn’t going anywhere. I’ve talked with plenty of self-righteous Mizzou students who simply need their hearts broken by the Almighty. I will pray for you that you might come to change and repentance and no longer lead others astray from who Jesus is and what He accomplished. I know I was harsh and I hope that the anger you may have towards me is redirected toward repentance and that you would not grow bitter or insulted.

Billy Glosson

Jonathan you seem to be a very forward thinker and very much desire to grow in knowledge. A lot of your arguments seem to be logical and follow through with sound reasoning. I know that the essentialism that comes from Christian doctrine might seem foolish and even archaic . . . but that is what I believe God desired in order to carry out Salvation.

Jonathan more than anything I hope you meet Jesus the same way that I have and I really believe the same way my brother has. I desire good for you not evil but until you began to allow truth to seep into your soul I fear you will continually place your hope in radical misconceptions. Here is where I stand . . . I hold fast to my faith in Jesus Christ.

Now I understand this perhaps doesn’t seem to rightly correlate with your understanding of time and space. But all I can do is answer your question and let you decide if I’m nuts or idiotic. I could argue why I believe philosophically, scientifically, or perhaps give the moral reasoning . . . but none of that will challenge you any differently. I guess for me it’s the bizarre concept of who Christ is . . . and what the Bible teaches. Let me show you what I mean. Philippians 2:5-11:

“Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Religion will teach you that you must do something in order to please God, whether it’s to fulfill this moral checklist in order to achieve good karma, a state of nirvana, even heaven. It’s this concept that we must do something in order to please God . . . or a greater cosmic being. But that’s not the teaching of the Bible. Rather we read here that God humbled himself by becoming the man Jesus Christ . . . and serving us. Instead of us pleasing God by some moral living, or religion . . . God serves us and provides an opportunity for new life.

The first time I grasped that concept . . . it was insane. A humble God . . . one that serves mankind, and yet is infinite and all powerful . . . makes no sense! The idea is preposterous and completely different than any religion or philosophy. Yet that?s when you stumble upon this1 Corinthians 1:18-25:

“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: „I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.? “Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”

God knew that the concept of Jesus serving as a redeeming savior was foolish . . . that?s why He did it. God in his wisdom used what seemed as foolishness in order to restore us to Him . . . to bring us to newness of life. You see no one would make this up . . . because it doesn’t make sense. Who writes something that is contrary to everything the human nature desires? Jesus says, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.” The idea of living a humble lifestyle seeking to serve, honoring people . . . maintaining righteousness . . . it simply isn’t appealing.

I heard someone argue once, “If I making a religion I don’t think I’ll choose to make life hard, and hell hot. I say we get salvation by chicken wings and naps.” The reality is I can’t articulate the truth in what I believe, as per the change in me. I hope you can see the joy Jesus has given me, but there is no way you can know all he has done. There is a concept of a new heart and a new mind that is amazing. In high school I never explored my faith. I just annoyingly proclaimed. Half the time I didn’t even really follow my beliefs the way I should’ve. It left people with a bitter taste in their mouth for me. Upon really examining things and asking questions I found myself comforted by the reality of Jesus Christ. The change in me is insane . . . to see what God has done. There are so many things I could say . . . to try and swoon you into my understanding . . . but to what avail.

You ask why I feel it necessary to share this message. If I truly believe that this is truth and that this is a message of hope . . . that by believing you are reconciled to God, that you live a new life with the same hope I’ve found . . . I would have to absolutely hate you not to share that. I have so much more I could elaborate on . . . but this a whole lot to think on. So I will leave it for your opinions and questions.

Daniel Glosson

Let me apologize for the harshness of what I said earlier. I responded impulsively because I can’t shake hands with over this matter because I feel your position subtracts from the kingdom of God. So, I’m not recanting but my intent wasn’t to take personal stabs. My heart is really heavy for you Jonathan and my prayer is that you understand what my brother has written and apply it to your understanding. It will change your life.

Jacob Evans

Glosson brothers, I just wanna say that both of your passion, joy, boldness, and meekness truly blessed me while reading this. very blessed words. Jonathan, I pray that you will read them and think about them. and study the word man . . . it very clearly shows the equality and oneness of the trinity.

Jonathan Flesher

Jesus Christ of is my Lord and Savior. He is the only-begotten son of the living God, Yahweh. Jesus Christ is my friend, my brother, my guide, my advocate, my mediator. He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life due to his perfect faith in his Father. He willingly gave up himself to be sacrificed to God, whom the payment was owed for our sins. For the joy that his God set before him in the kingdom promised to him, he endured the cross and the shame and was marred more than any man for me and for you.

Even though he was before ordained to be the son of the living God, he realized he was still human and didn’t think it was his place to seize equality with God. He realized that it was his purpose to be a servant to us instead of pridefully boasting his God-given power. He also knew there would be a time that he would reign in power in a kingdom his Father promised him for a later date. He trusted that God would raise him again after the third day and night. True to his word, God raised him up, the first born from the dead. By the process of his faith-in God to resurrection he paved the way for us to be raised into the same future kingdom. For this Jesus Christ has been highly exalted and given a name above every name.

He did what no man had ever done. The last Adam truly did what the first Adam failed to do. In the same way that sin entered into all men via one man, eternal life is given to all who desire it–via one man who broke down the barrier of death. He destroyed the fear of death which holds all men in bondage to sin. Perfect love can truly live in our hearts now. Jesus Christ can live in our minds, hearts and actions.

It is Christ’s faith that has made me righteous. I am saved by Gods grace because of Christ?s work. Because of my assurance of salvation from his work, I am able to love freely without fear of death, which would have been my punishment for sin. I am free in Christ from everything that bound me and for this I am thankful. I can now follow him not only to his death, but in the resurrection, in life and in perfect love, in the faith he had, the faith he authored and perfected.

[6]who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Philippians 2:6 ESV)

I am so confused by your understanding . . . How does Jesus as God, or for that matter the Trinity, take away from what you just said? It reinforces it. You’re not far off, you’re just missing the best part and it saddens me Jonathan. I mean no hatred. I genuinely do not understand how you can comprehend the Gospel without Christ as divine. I cannot shrug off Scripture, therefore I simply have to leave it at a point where I am simply confused by your understanding of Jesus as this “super-human”.

Jonathan Flesher

The following is a list of arguments in favor of the Father being God, and Jesus being Lord. I’m not posting this to debate or in hopes of rebuttal. I don’t even fully agree with every statement made, but I hope that it gives some weight to this line of thinking. I hope you see that the Trinitarian theology you are so adamantly in favor of is not as black and white, and not as secure as you think it is.

Neither is the view of Christian history you must hold to think the way you are all thinking. There is not only rational, logical and philosophical validity to Christian Monotheism, there is also spiritual and most importantly biblical validity to Christian Monotheism. The responses given to what I wrote sadden me greatly. God forbid Christian free thought should never be squelched. The minute it is, the minute the John Calvin s of the world will start burning the Micheal Servatus’s of the world at the stake again. Side Note: I am not claiming to be a Christian Monotheist or a Biblical Unitarian, but Biblical Unitarians should never be categorized with Unitarian Universalists . . .

One Hundred Scriptural Arguments For the Unitarian Faith
Boston: American Unitarian Association
By: Samuel Barrett (1825)

1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me” (John 8:17 and 18). 2. Because he not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom youhave sent” (John 17:3). This language our Savior used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.” 3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). Can a son be coeval (the same age) and the same with his father? 4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power” (Acts 10:38). Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed? 5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus” (Hebrews 3:1). The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.

6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). 7. Because, as the Savior of men, he was sent by the Father. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14). 8. Because he is an Apostle appointed by God. “Consider the Apostle, . . . Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him” (Hebrews 3:1 and 2). 9. Because Christ is represented as our intercessor with God. “It is Christ that died, yes, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us” (Romans 8:34). 10. Because the head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3).

11. Because, in the same sense in which we are said to belong to Christ, Christ is said to belong to God. “And you are Christ?s; and Christ is God?s” (1 Corinthians 3:23). 12. Because Christ says, “My father is greater than all” (John 10:29). Is not the father, then greater than the son? 13. Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). 14. Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why do you call me Good? There is none good but one, that is God” (Matthew 19:17). 15. Because our Savior, after having said, “I and my Father are one,” gives his disciples distinctly to understand that he did not mean one substance, equal in power and glory, but one only in affection and design, as clearly appears from the prayer he offers to his Father in their behalf, –“that they all may be one; as thou, Father, are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:21).

16. Because the Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. Jesus says to her, “. . . Go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God” (John 20:17). 17. Because an Apostle says of God, in distinction from the “Lord Jesus Christ,” that He is the “only Potentate,” and that He “only has immortality” (1 Tim. 6:15 and 16). 18. Because it is the express declaration of the same Apostle, that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things” (1 Corinthians 8:5 and 6). 19. Because the power which Christ possessed was, as him affirmed, given to him. “All power is given to me” (Matt. 28:18). 20. Because he positively denies himself to be the author of his miraculous works, but refers them to the Father, or the holy spirit of God. “The Father that dwells in me, he does the works” (John 14:10). “If I cast out devils by the spirit of God” (Matthew 12:28).

21. Because he distinctly states, that these works bear witness, not to his own power, but that the Father had sent him (John 5:36). 22. Because he expressly affirms that the works were done, not in his own name, but in his Father?s name (John 10:25). 23. Because he asserts, that “him has God the Father sealed,” i.e. to God the Father he was indebted for his credentials (John 6:27). 24. Because he declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me” (John 7:16 and 17). 25. Because he represents himself as having been instructed by the Father. “As my Father has taught me, I speak these things” (John 8:28).

26. Because he refers invariable to the Father as the origin of the authority by which he spoke and acted. “The Father has given to the Son authority” (John 5:26 and 27). 27. Because he acknowledges his dependence on his heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do” (John 5:19). “The Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself doeth” (John 5:20). 28. Because he says, “I seek not mine own glory; but I honor my Father” (John 8:49 and 50). 29. Because he declares, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me” (John 8:54). 30. Because an Apostle declares, that in Christ dwelt all fullness, because it so pleased the Father (Colossians 1:19).

31. Because Christ is uniformly represented in the Scriptures, not as the primary, but the intermediate cause of all things relating to our salvation. “One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1 Corinthians 8:6). 32. Because he declares, “I am not come of myself” into the world, “for I proceeded forth and came from God” (John 8:42; 7:28). Jesus knowing… that he “came from God, and went to God” (John 13:3). 33. Because he affirms that he had not the disposal of the highest places in his own kingdom. “To sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father” (Matthew 20:23). 34. Because our Savior, referring his disciples to a future time, when they would understand more accurately concerning him, expressly declares that then they would know him to be entirely dependent upon the Father. “When ye have lifted up the Son of man (i.e. crucified him), then shall ye know that I am he (i.e. the Messiah), and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things” (John 8:28). 35. Because our Savior always professed to have no will of his own, but to be ever entirely guided and governed by the will of his heavenly Father. “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me” (John 6:38).

36. Because he expressly denies that he is possessed of Divine attribute of independent existence. “As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father” (John 6:57). 37. Because he expressly disclaims the possession of the Divine attribute of un-derived existence. “As the Father has life in himself, so has he given to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26). 38. Because he positively denies that he is possessed of the Divine attribute of omnipotence. “I can of mine own self do nothing” (John 5:30). 39. Because he expressly disclaims the possession of the Divine attribute of omniscience. “But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but my Father only” (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32). 40. Because Christ is said in the Scriptures to have been “tempted of the devil” (Matthew 4:1). But “God can not be tempted with evil” (James 1:13).

41. Because it is related of our Savior, that “he continued all night in prayer to God” (Luke 6:12). Why should Christ thus pray, if he himself were God? 42. Because, in presence of a numerous company before the resurrection, he gave thanks to the Father for having heard him. “Father, I thank you that you have heard me, and I knew that you hear me always” (John 11:41 and 42). 43. Because Jesus besought his Father to glorify him. “And now, O Father, glorify me with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was” (John 17:5). The one who prayed to God to glorify him, cannot be God. 44. Because he implored that, if it were possible, the bitter cup might pass from him, adding, “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39). 45. Because he said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). Can he who uttered this be the Supreme God?

46. Because he never paid his adoration to himself, the Son, nor to the Holy Ghost, as he should have done, had the Son and the Holy Ghost been God; but always to the Father. 47. Because he never instructed his disciples to worship himself or the Holy Ghost, but the Father, and the Father only. “When ye pray, say Our Father which art in heaven” (Luke 11:2). “In that day, ye shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name” (John 16:23). “The hour comes and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeks such to worship him” (John 4:23). 48. Because it was not the practice of the Apostles to pay religious homage to Christ, but to God the Father through Christ. “I thank God through Jesus Christ” (Romans 7:25). “To God only wise, be glory through Christ” (Rom 16:27). “I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 3:14). 49. Because St. Peter, immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit (holy spirit) on the Day of Pentecost, thus addressed the Jews: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles, and wonders, and signs which God did by him, in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; whom God has raised up” (Acts 2:22-24). 50. Because St. Paul expressly states that, “all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:18).

51. Because the same Apostle gives “thanks to God, who givs us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 15:57). 52. Because it is said that it is “to the glory of God the Father,” that “every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord” (Phil. 2:11). 53. Because the Scriptures affirm that “Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but He (glorified him) who said to him, You are my Son, this day have I begotten thee” (Hebrews 5:5). 54. Because it is expressly asserted that God gave to Christ the Revelation which was made to the author of the Apocalypse (Revelation 1:1). 55. Because an Apostle speaks of Christ, only as the image of God. “Who is the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). It would be absurd to call anyone his own image.

56. Because Christ is stated to be “the first-born of every creature” (Colossians 1:15). 57. Because he is said to be “the beginning of the creation of God” (Revelation 3:14). 58. Because the Scriptures affirm, in so many words, that “Jesus was made a little lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9). Can God become lower than his creatures? 59. Because Peter declares that “Christ received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved son” (2 Peter 1:17). 60. Because it is represent
61. Because, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christ is compared with Moses in a manner that would be impious if he were the Supreme God. “For this man (Christ) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch” (Hebrews 3:3). 62. Because he is represented as being the servant, the chosen, the beloved of God, and the recipient of God?s spirit. “Behold, my servant, whom I have chosen, in whom my soul is well pleased; I will put my spirit upon him” (Matthew 12:18). 63. Because he himself expressly declares that it was in consequence of his doing what pleased the Father, that the Father was with him and did not leave him alone. “He that sent me is with me; the Father has not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him” (John 8:29). 64. Because he is said to have “increased in wisdom, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). 65. Because he speaks of himself as one who had received commands from the Father. “The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment” (John 12:49).

66. Because he is represented as obeying the Father, and as having been “obedient to death” (Phil. 2:8). “Even as the Father said to me, so I speak” (John 12:50). “I have kept my Father?s commandments” (John 15:10). 67. Because Christ “Learned obedience by the things he suffered,” and through sufferings was made perfect by God (Hebrews 5:8). 68. Because he is spoken of in the Scriptures as the first born among many brethren (Romans 8:29). Does God have brothers? 69. Because Christ calls everyone who obeys God his brother. “Whosoever shall do the will of my Father in heaven, the same is my brother” (Matthew 12:50). 70. Because he offers to the faithful the like distinction and honor that he himself has with the Father. “To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am seated with my Father in his throne” (Revelation 3:21).

71. Because God, in the later ages, has spoken by his Son, and appointed him heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2). 72. Because Christ is styled the first-begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5). 73. Because it is declared that God raised him from the dead. “This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses” (Acts 2:32; Romans 10:9-10). 74. Because God poured out upon the Apostles the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ (Titus 3:6). 75. Because the reason assigned for the Holy Spirit not having been received earlier, is that Jesus was not then glorified. “The Holy Ghost (holy spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:39).
76. Because it is affirmed that Christ was exalted by God to be a Prince and a Savior (Acts 5:31). 77. Because God made that same Jesus, who was crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). 78. Because God gave him a name which is above every name (Phil. 2:9). 79. Because Christ was ordained of God to be the judge of the quick and the dead (Acts 10:42). 80. Because God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:16).

81. Because all judgment is committed to Christ by the Father (John 5:22). 82. Because our Savior grounds the importance of his judgment solely upon the circumstances, that it is not exclusively his own judgment which he pronounces, but that of the Father who sent him. “If I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me” (John 8:16). 83. Because it is said, that, when he was received up into heaven, he “sat on the right hand of God” (Mark 16:19). 84. Because St. Paul affirms, that Christ, even since his ascension, “lives to God,” and “lives by the power of God” (Romans 6:10; 2 Corinthians 12:4). 85. Because it is affirmed of Christ, that “when all things shall be subdued under him then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28).

86. Because the Apostle John asserts that “no man has seen God at any time”; which is not true, if Christ were God (John 1:18). 87. Because, in the prophecies of the Old Testament that relate to Christ, he is spoken of as a being distinct from and inferior to God (Deut. 18:15; John 1:45). 88. Because the Jews never expected that any other than a being distinct from and inferior to God was to be their Messiah, and yet there is no evidence that our Savior ever so much as hinted to them that this expectation was erroneous. 89. Because it does not appear from the Scriptures, that the Jews, except in two instances (See #90), ever opposed our Savior on the ground that he pretended to be God or equal with God; whereas, had it been his custom to assume such identity or equality, in his conversation with a people so strongly attached to the doctrine of the divine unity, he would have found himself involved in a perpetual controversy with them on this point, some traces of which must have appeared in the New Testament. 90. Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he positively denies the charges. In reply to the charge of assuming to be equal with God, he says immediately, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do”; and directly after, “I can of mine own self do nothing” (John 5:19 and 30). In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the Son of God (John 10:34-36).

91. Because, had his immediate disciples believe him to be the Almighty, would they have been so familiar with him, have argued with him, betrayed him, denied him, fled from him, and left him to be dragged to the cross? 92. Because the Apostles, after they had been filled with the Holy Ghost (holy spirit) on the day of Pentecost, did not preach that Christ was God; but preached what was altogether inconsistent with such a doctrine (Acts 2:22; 13:23; 17:3 and 31; 22:8). 93. Because there is no evidence to prove that the first converts to Christianity ever incurred the imputation of idolatry from the Jews, as they must have done had they believed and taught that the Son, as well as the Father, is Jehovah; while it is notorious that this imputation has been among the most common of the Jewish reproaches against Christians, since the Trinity became a doctrine of the Church. 94. Because there are in the New Testament seventeen passages, wherein the Father is styled one or only God, while there is not a single passage in which the Son is so styled. 95. Because there are 320 passages in which the Father is absolutely, and by way of eminence, called God; while there is not one in which the Son is thus called.

96. Because there are 105 passages in which the Father is denominated God, with peculiarly high titles and epithets, whereas the Son is not once denominated. 97. Because there are 90 passages wherein it is declared that all prayers and praises ought to be offered to Him, and that everything ought to be ultimately directed to his honor and glory; while of the Son no such declaration is ever made. 98. Because of 1,300 passages in the New Testament wherein the word God is mentioned, not one necessarily implies the existence of more than one person in the Godhead, or that this one is any other than the Father. 99. Because the passages wherein the Son is declared, positively, or by clearest implication, to be subordinate to the Father, deriving his being from Him, receiving from Him his divine power, and acting in all things wholly according to His will, are in number above 300. 100. Because, in a word, the supremacy of the Father, and the inferiority of the Son, is the simple, unembarrassed, and current doctrine of the Bible; whereas, that of their equality or identity is clothed in mystery, encumbered with difficulties, and dependent, at the best, upon few passages for support.

Daniel Glosson

[6]who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Philippians 2:6 ESV)

What do I have to do Jonathan? Do you want me to go one by one and give an explanation for this “100 reasons why you don’t believe Jesus is God” list? Will that help you? Will that remove the blinders? What am I supposed to say via Facebook status to wake you up? Your hard heart causes me deep sorrow. I’ve thought about and prayed for you for days on end. I can’t shut up about you when I talk to other people because I’m so burdened for you. I’ve been praying and praying for you and I will continue to do so. I could care less about winning some argument. I am afraid for your soul because you are fooling yourself and others. If it were a Jew presenting this, I would understand because they don’t claim Jesus as their savior but I would discuss the matter and present the Truth from Scripture. If it were a non-Christian suggesting Jesus wasn’t God then I would talk it through with them and love them and try to present them the Truth with Them. You, however, you know better. You claim Christ yet deny Jesus and the Holy Spirit of their rightful glory and identity. You refuse to understand. So I will continue treating you sharply & harshly because this is what the New Testament (1Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter) teaches concerning false teachers/prophets. You’ve got the package, wrapping, and ribbon but it’s missing the gift inside. Perhaps one day while debating someone else over this matter you will soften because I assure you, you’ll run into it the rest of your days until you recant of the heresy you hold to.

Jonathan Flesher

I don’t believe Jesus was a super human. I believe he was a human just like you and me according to the flesh. Who he was to be for us and the world and who he would become upon his exaltation is a totally different story. I don’t believe he had any super powers granted him, aside from the holy spirit. God shows this in Matt 3 when Jesus is baptized and the spirit falls on him. I believe he was a man accredited (acts) by God and sent into the world. Jesus was a man tempted in all things like we are. I believe he fulfilled mans purpose of trusting in God. I don’t think this devalues Christ?s worth as a sacrifice. I think this makes his work worth far more than if he had been divine from birth. A divine being cannot genuinely fear death, because a divine being cannot die and therefore overcome death with faith in God. A divine being cannot fulfill and redeem man’s purpose. Man has to do that. God provided the second Adam and the second Adam followed through . . .

Daniel Glosson

He was God and he added onto that divinity, humanity. He humbled Himself and became a man. Philippians 2, over and over and over, Philippians 2. This is everything and you’re missing it. You’re lost.
Jonathan Flesher I don’t feel like breaking anymore scripture down, but here is something to chew on:

Philippians 2:6-8 on BiblicalUnitarian.com

The scriptures suggest that Jesus was man, and he put on Divinity through trust in his Father. Therefore God highly exalted him.

Flesher

Daniel, think what you will of me. I DON’T think YOU are lost at all. I just think you are interpreting scripture differently than I am. You are my brother and if you want to pray for me, please pray for my life and what God is working in it and the ministry he is working through in me. If you want to pray for a person?s soul, I suggest you start praying for someone who needs it . . .

Daniel Glosson

You’re a false teacher. You’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing. You’re deceptive and you’re pulling people away from who Jesus is and it is absolutely devastating. It tears me up inside that you’re robbing people in such a way. You are not a brother in Christ because you don’t know Him and that is clear primarily because of your desire to discuss this matter outside of Scripture. Additionally you don’t believe the Holy Spirit is God so I know you aren’t led by Him. You can make this all “buddy buddy” if you want but this is not a difference of opinion. This is not a “open-minded” discussion. This is black and white. Wrong or Right. This is the difference between truth and lies. You shoot wolves. You don’t pet them and let them graze with the sheep. Repent. This is the ultimate topic. There is nothing more important. I’m shaking the dust off of my feet. Your heart is hard and I will continue to pray that you repent of your heretical view of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

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